2017 FR-S Power Bump to 210hp and Improved Handling

"PICKLEBOY" (pickleboy) 05/26/2015 at 10:07 • Filed to: FRS, BRZ, Toyobaru, Twins, Toyota, Subaru, Scion, Power increase, more power, power

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Haven’t seen this talked about on Jalopnik or Oppo, but has anyone else read this? This is coming from Motoring in Australia (who have been known to be fairly accurate with info) that the FR-S will get a model refresh and slight power bump to 210hp and 159tq up from 200hp and 151tq, Accomplished by reducing friction and a revised intake manifold.

Although that isn’t exactly what most of us are pining for it is more than welcomed, considering Subaru has been known to turn down lots of what the Scion/Toyota division has wanted to do with it since Subaru is the one manufacturing them.

Even if it is not a huge power bump this would put the 2.0 boxer at 105hp/liter which is pretty nice. Maybe they even removed the mid torque dip from the factory similar to some aftermarket tunes.

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SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:09

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The intake manifold is pretty damn near perfect as is. Reduced friction? Even thinner oil? Sounds to me like they just did a tune.

LongbowMkII > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:10

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I though Motoring Australia was notorious for misinformation . Maybe it’s another Australian publication that keeps reviving new RX-9 and VW Bus rumors.

PICKLEBOY > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/26/2015 at 10:12

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Likely, but it sure would be nice if the torque dip was eliminated from the factory.

PICKLEBOY > LongbowMkII 05/26/2015 at 10:14

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Maybe, I’m not super familiar with those rumors, but this info seems reasonable enough haha

LongbowMkII > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:17

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It does. but people will still whine.

The Guy who Drives ( A Aw11 Named Inari) > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/26/2015 at 10:17

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That what it seems like to me, Everything seems to be well thought out with a cursory glance.

The want has been strong lately, But I still Long for my MR2 to return to me.

AM > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:19

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So nothing to be super excited about? Just turbocharge it already, add some quickness to that fantastic handling.

spanfucker retire bitch > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:22

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This is coming from Motoring in Australia (who have been known to be fairly accurate with info)

Are they? I thought this was same group that swore up and down that Mazda was doing a new rotary-powered RX?

nermal > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 10:26

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The power problem with these isn’t HP, it’s torque. It’s the same as the RX8, where it made plenty of power, you just had to rev the crap out of it to get there. As a result, driving around normally like a sane person makes it feel slow.

As a comparison, a GTI puts out similar HP, but ~100 more torques, and it’s all available in a lower rev range. As a result it will pull much harder from much lower rpms and in higher gears, where the cars spend the majority of time on the street.

The peaky engine in the FRS/BRZ isn’t underpowered. It just makes it’s power high in the rev range. Some call this “fun”. Some call it “weak”.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 11:14

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I was under the impression that the Toyota Overlords were the ones who kyboshed the turbocharged engine that Subaru already has, as well as the convertible version that was being evaluated. Toyota also dictated the styling to look somewhat like 2000GT, but forgot the point that 2000GT was a fastback hatch 3-door. Something the FT86 triplets should have been.

Subaru is building far more FR-S and GT86 cars than BRZs... but is getting paid for manufacturing all three together. Why would Subaru kibosh that sort of stuff? They have the FA20DIT engine in the Forester XT and 2015 WRX. It is in production, and ready to go.

And seriously, 10hp and 8 lb.ft. of torque, likely at or near redline, is weak, and hardly enough of what this car sorely needs, which is TORQUE, and a power to weight ratio that blows away any trace of excuse-making. “It isn’t about power...” EXCUSE. “It isn’t that bad...” EXCUSE.

Cars with more than just merely enough power never need having excuses made for that fact.

It needs either a turbocharger, or two more cylinders, and at least 270 horsepower... and a targa/spyder roof option.

I have gone in-depth before about how Subaru could build an EZ34 flat-6 for this car (and could use it in the STI or other Subaru cars, as well... EZ36’s block with 92mm bore, de-stroked to the same 86mm stroke as the FA20 with straight con-rods, direct or dual-mode fuel injection, dual AVCS cam timing, and Toyota’s Valvematic variable valve lift. It would have 3.4 liters, and probably near enough to 100hp/liter with ~340 horsepower, if they use a transmission that can handle that output, and don’t cork the engine like they do now, to protect subaru’s transaxles from more than 250 lb.ft. of torque. (save the STI’s robust 6MT-DCCD gearbox.)

If Porsche can do turbo-flat-4s, then Subaru can do 100hp/L 3.4L flat 6s like 981 S-models.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > The Guy who Drives ( A Aw11 Named Inari) 05/26/2015 at 11:36

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AE86 should never have been the car Toyota resurrected, and I have said this since before the car came to market. FT86 was a flawed premise, and the “Toyotas-way-0r-the-highway” configuration has not helped a bit.

It should have been a UW-40 MR2. (4U-GSE is toyota’s code for Subaru’s FA20 engine, or otherwise ‘-GTSE’ for the FA20DIT if they would use it., the U would be used in the chassis code, W being the code for MR2’s chassis, 4 being the 4th generation, after AW-11, SW-20, and the unfortunately-underdelivered ZZW-30 Spyder.)

With a mid-engined Subaru-powered car, they would have been able to use Subaru’s cable-shift 6-speed manual transaxle in lateral-only 2WD mode, and it would have been like a half-priced 4-cylinder Porsche Boxster/Cayman. Porsche is going to go 4-cylinder with theirs, but probably won’t cut the price in half.

It would have also left Subaru free to produce an AWD sport coupe, instead of being stuck with 2WD and Toyota’s other dictates. They could have produced a new 3-door WRX, or a coupe as it’s own model somewhere between WRX and Legacy, with some touring prowess and sophisticated styling, instead of being just a boy-racer car with a flat nose and a big wing.

AE86 only gained popularity as a CHEAP RWD used car with a decent 4A-GE engine... and the solid rear axle didn’t detract from being able to drift, but it was no “handling” car like Supra or MR2, both of which were superior performance cars at that time... even A60 Celica XX, with the 4-cylinder engine, but A60 Supra’s carry-over IRS was a better handling car.

Most of AE86’s fame came from an anime cartoon, not an actual car, anyway.

PICKLEBOY > AM 05/26/2015 at 16:18

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Its better than nothing, its a mid model refresh. I personally don’t expect a major power bump til 2nd generation which it has been confirmed a 2nd gen is coming.

Id much rather have a larger displacement NA than turbo though, a 2.5L version with Toyota’s direct injection and hold the 100hp/liter at 250hp itd be perfect

PICKLEBOY > nermal 05/26/2015 at 16:20

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this would just be a slight improvement, but the torque allegedly will improve as well. probably not too noticeable to the butt dyno though

PICKLEBOY > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 05/26/2015 at 16:26

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I agree. But I recall reading a while back that Scion’s division absolutely had a turbo charger on their list and other modifications, but Subaru was apprehensive about it. The convertible they claimed wouldnt make a business case because of the added price, although a targa version like you pictured would be pretty awesome.

Still have to remember this is the only relatively lightweight RWD car in the market in this price range for people looking for something other than a Miata. Of course theres the genesis, but its substantially heavier.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PICKLEBOY 05/26/2015 at 17:42

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That is a lot of market-narrowing caveats. RWD, Lightweight, price-range, other-than-Miata...

Unfortunately Genesis has to make excuses for it’s looks, but not it’s power. It may be slightly heavier, but both the 275hp I4 Turbo, and the 350hp V6 are better on power-to-weight ratio than the FT86 triplets. Mustang may be in a different weight class, but it starts at 300 horsepower and goes WAY up from there... and even if they are heavier cars, they cruise more easily on the highway, and are more comfortable for someone of greater than average height or build... Sub-3000lbs is nice, until you realize you can’t fit comfortably in it, and it feels like it is stressed-out on the interstate... and I say that as a 6’2” big guy who has an NB Miata in the garage.

The last I heard about turbocharging is that the Toyota lead designer for the whole FT86 project said categorically NO to turbocharging the triplets, and also NO to the convertible, and he probably got that from his immediate Vice-President level boss at Toyota.

I made that Spyder rendering from the FR-S concept car and the F458 Spyder’s top... I figured ditching the rear seat, making a power-operated vertical rear window, and a folding targa top panel that automatically stows into the space vacated by the rear seat and part of the trunk, would be possible... but unlikely to happen, if Toyota and Subaru are so risk-averse.

I hadn’t heard Subaru being reticent about it, aside from Subaru dealer associations in Australia and the US being apprehensive about lack of AWD before it came to market.

Subaru put an EJ-based turbocharged race engine in their GT-series BRZ race car, I can’t imagine why they would be apprehensive about using the FA20DIT in the car, unless it was going to be in the FR-S or GT86 but NOT be allowed in the BRZ somehow...

There could be a slight clearance issue at the bottom of the engine, with the turbo slung under the crankshaft pulley, and the engine’s lowered mounting position, but BRZ already has a merge collector and a pre-catalyzer there, IIRC... and returning to a higher mounting point for the turbocharger would be possible, too.

A 3.4L EZ-series H6 would be possible without the plumbing issues, as well... the EZ is less than 2 inches longer than EJ/FA, with a narrower cylinder pitch, and would arguably be the sweeter, and likely more powerful engine, anyway... but everybody is going turbo-gaga now.

Bytemite > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/24/2015 at 18:24

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No one would have to make any excuses if basic bros didnt always yell “it needs moar powerrrr” at the twins. If you want more power, go shop for a car with that power. You have about a huge selection of 300 hp+ cars to get your ego boost. But there is only 2 real budget sports cars on market, the twins and the Miata. If you don’t get the fun of a handling sports car, then why waste your time trying to make these cars into the 100s of other GT cars out there that fits YOUR needs? Go buy all those other cars that you listed with more power than the twins, if that is what you think you want. Really, just because you dont get it, you want to change it into what everything else on the market already fulfills? How does that make sense?

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Bytemite 10/24/2015 at 18:51

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ND Miata has it ALL OVER this car, even with lower power.

Lower weight, and more off-peak torque, and much higher than economy-car grade suspension. The convertible top is just the icing on the cake.

But Miata could use more power, the chassis could handle it, and the car would be better for it, all else equal.

The FT86 cars NEED it, and it isn’t a better car for not having it, and it doesn’t have the lifestyle appeal of the Miata, the styling, the chassis, or the reputation.

FT-86 with WRX’s engine would have been a compelling little weapon, with a power-to-weight advantage over heavier cars, as well as a distinct speed advantage over Miata, and a potentially bigger impact than Genesis Coupe. As-is, it doesn’t have those things, and it isn’t the prettiest or most versatile coupe on the market.

I am considering actually buying an ND Miata. I haven’t for once considered buying an FT86 car, Subaru or Scion, and I was a 2-time Subaru owner, including a Subaru coupe, as I had an SVX. BRZ has nothing I need, and very little that I would want. I’ve known that since WELL before it was on the market... I followed it’s 5 year on-and-off development, but being AWD-incompatible killed it deader than a door nail for me.

For BRZ’s price, I would rather have a brand new Miata, or a used Cayman, both in a heartbeat.

BRZ should have been a new WRX Coupe from Subaru. FR-S should have been a new SW20 MR2 successor... or at the very least, should have had a lift back hatch and 270 turbocharged horsepower, or otherwise a Z-killing 3.4 de-stroked EZ-seried flat-6 option, along with it’s 250-lb lighter weight. Even if FA20 is the base engine, it should have an up-option engine with a serious bump in power. It is just potential left unused on the floor, and the car is withering on the vine, in terms of sales, without it.

Bytemite > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/24/2015 at 18:58

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Power doesn’t magically appear though. You would increase weight in the front of the car by quite a lot by adding a turbo or having a large displacement engine. You would also lose the ability to drive closer to the limits on the street. And lose a bunch of mpg. If the twins arent your cup of tea, then it just isnt your cup of tea. I however, don’t see much wrong with it. If they could have lowered the power and lowered the weight even more, I would be happier. But that new SF R concept would do just the trick if it came out. If your looking for speed and awd...then just get a wrx. What is the point of yurning this car into a wrx when there is already a wrx. There is nothing to complain about. This is a niche car because most people don’t get it. And even enthusiasts such as yourself don’t get it.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Bytemite 10/24/2015 at 19:57

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A: WRX is not a lift back coupe. It doesn’t even have a hatch anymore.

B: WRX is a boy-racer sedan with a park-bench wing, not an AWD all-season alternative to Genesis 2.0T, or Mustang EcoBoost.

C: nothing like that exists south of Audi TT’s price point, or the boxy Golf variants, which might as well not be coupes.

Coupes are not common place anymore. They are niche products that do two things well, compared to all of the various other body styles in the industry. Convertibles have a lifestyle and open air experience factor that gives appeal to other buyers.

Coupes are supposed to look better, and go faster.

BRZ and FR-S/GT 86 do neither better than the competition.

They aren’t particularly gorgeous. Flat in some places, bulbous in others, with parts that look tacked on (front fender insert panels), or not fitted properly (tail lights that cut into the already tiny trunk lid). It is nowhere NEAR as well designed as the 2000GT it supposedly draws some of it’s inspiration from, let alone other cars. ND Miata has an odd seam at the front of the hood, and maybe one or two other small details, but comparatively it is sleek and clean and simple... like a junior version of the Jaguar F-type roadster. BRZ’s looks aren’t even in the same zip code as the F-type coupe.

And the FT-86 cars are not faster. They may handle well if you drive them like you stole them, ALL THE TIME... but that gets tiring, and every other time, the car barely has the torque to get out of it’s own way. It isn’t about PEAK numbers, it is about the power curve UNDER the peak, when it is being driven at less than it’s maximum.

If that costs 30-50 pounds for a turbocharger and plumbing that can’t be offset somewhere else, so be it. The EZ series engines are barely 2” longer than the EJ or FA/FB series engines, and have more empty cylinder volume, so that isn’t a deal killer on weight, either. It is do-able.

Miata is reportedly much more fun to drive at the limit, and under it. Every other coupe, from a used Nissan Z or Genesis coupe, to certainly a 2015 Mustang are MUCH more engaging to drive, because they have POWER, and they still can handle well, even though they weigh more. They may even be more stable in real driving conditions on public roads... and likely more comfortable on longer trips.

If BRZ and FRS have nothing but their handling to fall back on, they are only to be considered for driving on a track...yet they aren’t powerful enough to be competitive in motorsports at stock configuration. They may not even hold up to a well tuned, much lighter and ideal-suspension Spec Miata track car.

They have no “killer application” They aren’t head and shoulders better than their competition, and what singular advantage they may have, is eclipsed by the list of disadvantages.

The cars may or may not get a second generation, and if they don’t Toyota and Subaru will highly likely MISS THE POINT AGAIN, that they missed when they cancelled all of their other previous coupes.

They’ll probably think that most people don’t like coupes, since these didn’t sell well after the initial limelight, so we shouldn’t build any anymore.

They won’t evaluate how they left sheer massive amounts of potential on the floor under the drawing board, so to speak. They under-delivered on the car, and the car is under-whelming to most enthusiasts, even if there are a few who like the narrow scope that the car has. If it had a wider scope, and was a more versatile car, with cargo versatility of a hatch, and enough power-to-weight ratio and torque to be compelling, it might be selling better.

If I wanted a new RWD coupe... I would be visiting my Ford dealer now, not Subaru or Scion.

Frankly, I do want one, but I don’t want to put it in the ditch, or leave it in the garage over the winter, so I would much rather have an AWD sport coupe that I didn’t have to put away, or be done in by physics on a slick road. But Subaru didn’t exactly give me an option for that, did they? They gave you TWO opportunities to buy the same car, of which you bought only one, and gave me the option for nothing.

Subaru doesn’t even build anything truly interesting and versatile with AWD anymore, since the 5-door WRX and STI are gone. I had an SVX and a Legacy GT sedan... both with dinky trunk lids. Not again. Hatch or bust. My old Probe GT and Fox Mustang Hatchback were much more cargo-friendly than my Subarus, and not because the Fords were bigger, if anything, they were smaller. But they both sucked for different reasons by being 2WD. One sucked in the wet and slick, the other was hindered by understeer and torque steer all the rest of the time, and wasn’t even that good in the snow, either.

Subaru and Toyota/Scion could have done MUCH better on many different fronts... they didn’t. And “its all about the handling” is no consolation for what they don’t do otherwise.

Frank Grimes > PICKLEBOY 11/30/2015 at 14:44

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they should be working on the exhaust manifold not the intake.